tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post2212533882120764772..comments2024-02-13T11:11:28.246+00:00Comments on Bishop Alan’s Blog: Showing off? shutting shop? showing up?Bishop Alan Wilsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-35791547664570620012011-12-17T16:55:34.050+00:002011-12-17T16:55:34.050+00:00"From a former member, now living in England&..."From a former member, now living in England" because post-Apartheid South Africa's crime rate has gone through the roof.<br /> How's that diversity thing working out for you>?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-58945824236698698332011-11-18T19:18:15.729+00:002011-11-18T19:18:15.729+00:00Great piece, thanks for sharing.Great piece, thanks for sharing.Spiritual Workshopshttp://www.humanisticspirituality.org/?page=search&search_all=true&topic=spiritualitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-27850131536140360392011-11-13T18:15:51.113+00:002011-11-13T18:15:51.113+00:00And perhaps finally for my comments to this blog e...And perhaps finally for my comments to this blog entry Sue Mitchell of <a href="http://passion.org.uk" rel="nofollow">passion.org.uk</a> (a resource for tomorrow's church) ended six sides of A4 summarising "Facing 2012" with these paragraphs (I had to look up "hegemony"), <br /><br /><i>"<b>Dream different dreams</b><br /><br />The challenge this year is not how things can be restored to how they were, even re-invested with our interpretation of Christian values. Instead it’s how to imagine and live out practical new manifestations of genuinely inclusive community within a crumbling social edifice. We have to struggle with fresh ideas of how as individuals we can engage in brotherly collaboration with those ‘different’ from us and how to handle the resource of that interaction rightly. The challenge is to love unconditionally, empower good agendas other than our own within multi-cultural communities and experiment with ways in which such groups can align non-competitively and resource each other. We need to explore again how ‘to live in peace with all people’ and ‘to be content ’ as a vibrant alternative to the clamour for rights and consumption.<br /><br />The old hegemony is being challenged at every level, from the streets, to the G20 and IMF. I believe this is under the urging of God himself, who came to abolish ‘all rule and all authority and power.’ (1 Cor. 15:24) What the alternative society looks like, one resourced by a love which may kill the initiator, but never the dissident, is down to us and our ability to embrace chaotic creativity, dream different dreams and see unexpected visions. <br /><br />Sue Mitchell, August 2011."<br /><a href="http://www.passion.org.uk/documents/Facing%202012.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.passion.org.uk/documents/Facing%202012.pdf</a><br /></i>Jocelyn E. Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05664433564567379232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-79732302557354253072011-11-12T19:00:59.317+00:002011-11-12T19:00:59.317+00:00At last. "What if the true reason for the [fi...At last. "<a href="http://euplanet.blogspot.com/2011/11/what-if-true-reason-of-crisis-was.html" rel="nofollow">What if the true reason for the [financial] crisis was... energy?</a>" introduces Jeremy Rifkin who argues everything from the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers in September 2008 is just a consequence of a western economc business model too highly focussed on oil that can no longer fuel the growth to which we became accustomed. <br /><br />Focussing on the bankers and their bonusses alone would perhaps miss the mark.Jocelyn E. Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05664433564567379232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-89923197938698053872011-11-11T23:43:09.471+00:002011-11-11T23:43:09.471+00:00Hi
This year I was asked by my vicar to be a chur...Hi <br />This year I was asked by my vicar to be a church warden. I accepted because I was flattered that my church community thought that I was the right kind of person to hold this position.I live in a semi rural community near a major city.I was christened a Roman Catholic but went to a church of England School because of my mothers sad times at a Nun controlled School during the late 30s. I became a member of my local Church 16 years ago after the local vicar came to my house. Over the years of taking my children to the church I began to enjoy the community and regained my faith in Jesus. I always thought the message from Christ was pure and simple and going to this church and seeing the way that both young and old had great understanding made me feel the true meaning of the word of Christ.<br />However since becoming the church warden it saddens me that the way that the church is run is like a company on the stock market. The poor vicar is the company accountant having to worry more about the parish share than doing what I thought he was employed to do. Do not get me wrong we all have to think of ways of paying our clergy but as Christ said we should think of one another and things will work itself out.Lets go back to the two main commandments and things will get better. People today are put off by all this money counting just as Jesus was.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-33081133925610236892011-11-07T23:40:23.075+00:002011-11-07T23:40:23.075+00:00OK, for what it is worth a layman's quick and ...OK, for what it is worth a layman's quick and dirty take on the St Paul's Institute report, "<a href="http://www.stpaulsinstitute.org.uk/dialogue/st-pauls-institute/article/2011/nov/07/-value-and-values-perceptions-of-ethics-in" rel="nofollow">Value and Values: Perceptions of Ethics int he City Today</a>". <br /><br />Financial Service Professionals (FSPs) were surveyed independently and results analysed as follows. But first this single most important question obvious by its absence only after analysing the results, "What, if any, contribution does a Church body have to make to your facing of the issues raised by your work in the financial sector?" (have to say you could ask this of any job -- mine for example -- and the results would be interesting). Moving on to apparent contradictions:- <br />FSPs believe they are paid too much but that salary is their primary motivation to work and also that salary less of a motivation for more senior FSPs (who perhaps fear less the losing of their job). FSPs believe deregulation resulted in less ethical behaviour -- but many FSPs voted for deregulation and few argue that further regulation in face of economic catastrophes is more necessary now. And yet FSPs maintain that maximising shareholder benefits is consistent with maintaining ethical standards. FSPs believe they are overpaid (compared to teachers for example -- I really like this bit) but that FSPs are under valued (Mmmm, I wonder the how and the why). Bottom line:- it is difficult to search for and apply the wisdom of god within the financial mechanics of global trade (and I'd say that about my job too -- can't speak for anyone else). <br />Like I said, for what it's worth a quick and dirty take.Jocelyn E. Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05664433564567379232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-29234902022698317392011-11-02T12:57:22.730+00:002011-11-02T12:57:22.730+00:00The Rev who conducted the Sunday service outside t...The Rev who conducted the Sunday service outside the locked doors at St Paul's is interviewed...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.times-series.co.uk/news/9339330.Barnet_vicar_defends_decision_to_close_cathedral/" rel="nofollow">http://www.times-series.co.uk/news/9339330.Barnet_vicar_defends_decision_to_close_cathedral/</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-77000057015011812822011-11-02T11:43:45.384+00:002011-11-02T11:43:45.384+00:00Hi all,
I have seen this on the TV. I think Dean...Hi all,<br /><br />I have seen this on the TV. I think Dean or Chapter that resigned should be given be given a medal. He should have been allowed to just get on and deal with the problem. It is hard to know exactly how thing will turn out until they happen.<br /><br />I also think that critising Archbishop Rowan is a Totally Pointless solution as it resolves absolutly Nothing. Rowan was probably going to see how things turned out before he took action, I know I would have done, that way it minimises the chances of taking action which could be imflamitory.<br /><br />Many Thanks, AnthonyArchbeship Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10094562492488579530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-60123808026006675852011-11-01T18:54:06.026+00:002011-11-01T18:54:06.026+00:00Good news could be on the way... maybe.
http://ww...Good news could be on the way... maybe.<br /><br />http://www.stpauls.co.uk/News-Press/Latest-News/St-Pauls-suspends-legal-action-against-protest-camp<br /><br />I even think I heard Canon Pastor Michael Colclough apologise on Radio 2 news earlier today - however I can't find a news story to confirm this so maybe I was hallucinating. Either way my money is looking less safe (and that's a good thing - see my earlier post).<br /><br />Anyway it looks as though the Cathedral is finally starting to come to terms with the situation. Perhaps the protest may awaken the church to its call as a prophetic voice - speaking out against injustice in our land.<br /><br /><br /><br />I have often thought that in today’s world, Bishops (particularly Arch Bishops) should have opinions about world issues that are known by the whole country. AB-York has occasionally achieved this, via things like cutting up his dog collar because of Mugabe, and camping in the cathedral because of the Middle East etc.<br />That is the sort of publicity the church should be getting - using its position to speak out.<br /><br /><br />I haven't seen Rowan do much of this, however if St Paul's does become a hub for discussing the flaws in capitalism then perhaps that's a start.The Confusedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897117622325120003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-19078330348047745132011-11-01T11:57:26.539+00:002011-11-01T11:57:26.539+00:00I agree that we don't necessarily know what Je...I agree that we don't necessarily know what Jesus would do, but what seems to have been lacking in much of what has been said elsewhere is the suggestion that we should ask Him. Too simplistic perhaps, but I have always thought that to live a Godly life meant doing just that on a daily basis.<br /><br />My great sadness is that what could have been so positive has yet again been hijacked by the media who have put their own spin on a great deal of what has been saidChrissytnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-56919715899392749022011-11-01T11:40:09.843+00:002011-11-01T11:40:09.843+00:00I find myself reflecting on the translation of Joh...I find myself reflecting on the translation of John 1.14 which goes:<br />"The Word became flesh and pitched his tent among us, and we saw his glory......"<br /><br />But I am also reflecting on why the story is about what the Dean and Chapter of St Paul's (and now the bishop of London) should do or not do, rather than the issues that the protest camp is there to raise. Is this a diversion from questions that are harder for all of us than the simple question of whether the use of injunctions and force to move peaceful protestors is either right or even sensible. Or is this the time to begin looking at who really wants the protestors moved? And does this have anything to do with the questions they (the protestors) are trying to raise? To some extent, to spend time debating the rights and wrongs of camping in the cold on hard pavements is all of us not wanting to talk about the ethics or lack of ethics that underpin so much of how we live today - and the even harder question of how we might change ourselves and our society.Rosalindnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-17715507150308659802011-10-31T22:34:21.617+00:002011-10-31T22:34:21.617+00:00Well said Bishop Alan.
"What's the probl...Well said Bishop Alan.<br /><br />"What's the problem?" is the question I've been asking for days now. Initially some fire exits were blocked but the protesters moved from these areas as soon as the issue was raised.<br /><br />Since when did peaceful protest become such a problem in the UK? I hear the government are even thinking about legislating to make sure such 'occupations' are henceforth illegal. Well, it seems like the police state has finally arrived!<br /><br />I don't agree with every argument being raised by the protesters but I do defend their right to voice them.<br /><br />I am embarrassed by the reaction of St Paul's and am put in mind of Jesus overturning the money-changer's tables in the temple.Orbiliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02555592378215131534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-85927801526546017092011-10-31T21:16:17.009+00:002011-10-31T21:16:17.009+00:00As an outsider looking in at the Church of England...As an outsider looking in at the Church of England, it's very confusing. To conservatives, Jesus was a conservative and the church is too left wing. To liberals, Jesus was a liberal and the church is too right wing. A clergyman at St Pauls says there is "no place at St Pauls for someone like [Giles Fraser]". The established church doesn't know if it's establishment or church. Trying to discern the true message of Christianity from all this is difficult. I've been flirtign with the church for a while, but now I'm washing my hair.Tony Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651739764248786020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-83212050499596862942011-10-31T17:39:36.314+00:002011-10-31T17:39:36.314+00:00@Peterpipe
In truth, knowing exactly what Jesus w...@Peterpipe<br /><br />In truth, knowing exactly what Jesus would do isn't easy. <br />However I don't see why their presence should cause a problem to any of the worship services at St Paul'sThe Confusedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897117622325120003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-71005861591209496372011-10-31T16:51:33.168+00:002011-10-31T16:51:33.168+00:00We know what the Lord Jesus would do. I fail to se...We know what the Lord Jesus would do. I fail to see why any religious leader or religious person is having difficulty deciding how to deal with this. Are they not Christians?Peeteehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14648260262473383087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-80911302230969957862011-10-31T15:00:07.017+00:002011-10-31T15:00:07.017+00:00On this day in 1517 Martin Luther nailed in the do...On this day in 1517 Martin Luther nailed in the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg his 95 theses. That symbolic act changed the church and the history of Western Europe forever. The OLSX have become the nails and the living arguments against an institutional church that has lost its credibility and moral compass. The church will not be the same again.<br /><br />ErnestoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-90447398241501610272011-10-31T00:08:54.427+00:002011-10-31T00:08:54.427+00:00Very glad of comments, espeially insider ones that...Very glad of comments, espeially insider ones that throw light on some of the problems this story is exposing. I think there is a fabulous opportunity here, if only clergy and others from the Cathedral will engage on an equal basis with the protestors. If not, there is a chill resonance about the "prudence" that's been used of evicting them ("It was... prudent" said Caiaphas of something else in the NT). The Gospel imperative is not to be right, or secure, but to recognise a God-given moment when it comes. Let's hope and pray we all do.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-42569020063116499562011-10-31T00:06:08.933+00:002011-10-31T00:06:08.933+00:00Jocelyn E. Chappell has left a new comment on your...Jocelyn E. Chappell has left a new comment on your post "Showing off? shutting shop? showing up?": <br /><br />Stephen Tomkins writes an insightful historical perspective: Is the Church inside or outside the establishment? (http://bbc.in/vifF4A) @ BBC NewsBishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-57474977689576961262011-10-30T21:52:58.796+00:002011-10-30T21:52:58.796+00:00Extract from the reading at our Sunday service thi...Extract from the reading at our Sunday service this morning:<br />"But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them "Rabbi"." <br />(Mat 23:3-7 NIV)<br />Why does this remind me of a Cathedral chapter?<br />Alan, you're setting a good example to your colleagues again. Actually going and seeing the camp? Careful, it might catch on.<br />The authorities at St Paul's have made the name of the CofE mud, and it's great to see people like Giles Fraser and you doing a bit to repair it. We should be on the side of the guy whose mother is supposed to have said: "He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away."Robertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-91327821501633830462011-10-30T20:16:00.888+00:002011-10-30T20:16:00.888+00:00To talk about the stock exchange going about its l...To talk about the stock exchange going about its lawful business is to make an assumption - the same assumption which was once made about bank lending and credit default swaps and the like. To say that no-one can ask the question until the wealthy have taken the loot, and the poor are evicted from their homes is to repeat the mistakes of the past. The actions of traders and investors may be prima facie lawful, but they are so significant to society, and trust has broken down to such an extent, that we ought, as the protestors are doing, to put them to rendering a public account for their actions in language that the rest of us understand. And more than that, we need to examine whether laws which make some of this behaviour lawful are right laws (morally justified laws) or not. And the money brokers and power brokers have not yet "got it".<br /><br />I preached a couple of weeks back on how, if your God is money, recent experiences have revealed the wrath of your God.<br /><br />The kind of confrontation we now have will just strengthen the protest. Jesus said 'love your enemies, and bless those who persecute you' - not take out lawsuits against people who annoy you.Mark Bennetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-54756086567464297182011-10-30T18:11:04.941+00:002011-10-30T18:11:04.941+00:00thank you bishop alan for your wisdom and thank yo...thank you bishop alan for your wisdom and thank you for representing many of us in your comments on bbc news.jonbirchhttp://asbojesus.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-81100522860986264632011-10-30T17:02:08.181+00:002011-10-30T17:02:08.181+00:00“And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast o...“And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all of them who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,<br /><br />And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”<br /> <br />— Matthew 21:12-13Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-30594182459957796572011-10-30T16:05:33.950+00:002011-10-30T16:05:33.950+00:00The clergy at St Paul's Cathedral should have ...The clergy at St Paul's Cathedral should have taken a leaf out the book of the late Very Revd Dean Edward Laurie King of St George's Cathedral: in the 1970s and 1980s we had squatters living in the grounds for a while and for 6 weeks even had some living in the Cathedral. St George's never closed even during the height of the Apartheid era when we had police storming the building chasing peaceful protesters in off the street, using tear gas and batons. <br /><br />Somehow St George's became a beacon of hope for many people, regardless of creed and status, during those dark days in SA. It stood up against oppression, and Dean Ted King's insightful leadership and bravery had a lot to do with this (Archbishop Desmond Tutu's era at the Cathedral started in 1986, after the squatter episode). <br /><br />St Paul's clergy should read Dean Ted King's books about this period including 'A Good place to be' see http://www.lib.uct.ac.za/mss/index.php?html=/mss/newaids/BC1252.HTM&msscollid=611 and http://www.stgeorgescathedral.com/index.html.<br /><br />From a former Parishioner of St George's Cathedral Cape Town, now living in England.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-14202744557415885442011-10-30T13:50:46.239+00:002011-10-30T13:50:46.239+00:00I agree with much that is said on here, and Bishop...I agree with much that is said on here, and Bishop Alan in particular. It is good to know that we have people in the upper echelons of the CofE who feel able to speak out on this issue - and also that they are willing to 'muck in' and talk to the protesters themselves.<br /><br />I have made my own post on this here- http://cecramble.blogspot.com/2011/10/st-pauls-and-campsite.html<br /> in which I focussed on the comedy of using Health and Safety as an excuse to close the Cathedral.<br /><br /><br />I ended my own blog with something that I think deserves to be repeated:<br /><br />The Cathedral needs to practice the old art of Christian Repentance (something I see very rarely in Christian organisations) – they should apologise for confusion about how long they thought the protesters would stay, and for the confusion over Health and Safety. And be HONEST about wanting them to leave OR be HONEST about being ambivalent about them leaving or not.<br /><br />Honesty and saying sorry. Something the people have asked the government and the bankers to do for years, but so far they have not managed to do. <br />Can the Christians manage to live out such a great Christian witness or will they succumb to pride?<br /><br />I know where my (metaphorical) money is, and where my hope is. Sadly the two don’t seem to be aligned.The Confusedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897117622325120003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-45113320467623714272011-10-30T13:45:40.187+00:002011-10-30T13:45:40.187+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Confusedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897117622325120003noreply@blogger.com