tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post6193337530956780493..comments2024-02-13T11:11:28.246+00:00Comments on Bishop Alan’s Blog: Looks Like a Duck, Stings like a Bee,Bishop Alan Wilsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-75571808105515996252012-02-06T07:12:21.654+00:002012-02-06T07:12:21.654+00:00"discrimination" in your technical OED s..."discrimination" in your technical OED sense of the term isn't the problem, and is entirely covered by genuine occupational requirements. Nobody is compelled to empty one legged centre forwards or firefighters who can't carry the weight of a body. The problem is discrimination in the sense of the term that it is used in English employment law. I simply don't accept that moral character is a given like gender, or that it is unrelated to the ability to serve as a Christian leader. I don't see any of the protected characteristics given in the equalities act as disqualifying (properly) from Church leadership in themselves.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-16013608006809335262012-02-06T00:11:51.564+00:002012-02-06T00:11:51.564+00:00Alan, if you are not suggesting treating men and w...Alan, if you are not suggesting treating men and women identically, then you are discriminating. That is what discrimination means (as I have been trying to point out) [- per OED, To make or constitute a difference in or between; to distinguish, differentiate]. That is why there can be 'good' discrimation and 'bad' discrimination.<br /><br />And I would still like us hear your views, in positive (and specific) terms, what the criteria for leaders should be. The Bible doesn't just talk in terms of gifts and calling, but also moral character - which (like gender) isn't directly related to the ability to do the job day to day. Do you see any place for requiring self-control (for example) in a church leader?Mike Dowlernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-51337900883826648612012-02-05T15:47:20.119+00:002012-02-05T15:47:20.119+00:00Dear Mike, I am sorry if I haven't explained m...Dear Mike, I am sorry if I haven't explained myself sufficiently clearly, but I am not suggesting treating men and women identically, just not discriminating against either gender. There are all sorts of grounds, as you know, in the Scriptures and elsewhere that should be used to assess suitability for all sorts of different roles in the Church, according to candidates' gifts and callings. Their gender, in itself should not be an automatic disqualification for any role to which it appears, on the usual criteria applied to it, a candidate might be suitable.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-42372288741034329812012-02-05T15:36:56.308+00:002012-02-05T15:36:56.308+00:00Alan, you are tilting at straw men. I am not in t...Alan, you are tilting at straw men. I am not in the least suggesting that racism has any part in the mindset of a Christian, and so it is simply false to use a right hatred of racism in support of treating men and women identically. Granted, there may be some similar arguments; in which case, please make them, on their own merits, rather than simply branding any opposition to women in leadersip as neo-Nazi racists.<br /><br />And, in saying that there are genuine occupational requirements, you are of course advocating discrimination against those who do not meet the requirements. The point, as I made above, is that we need to decide what discrimination is acceptable and which is not. The alternative, to be indiscriminate in appointing leaders, would be to fail in our duty to God.<br /><br />Again, please could you refrain from inflammatory rhetoric, and put forward what you think are (or should be) the grounds on which we should assess suitability for leadership in God's church?Mike Dowlernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-32937234382441904302012-02-04T15:53:41.086+00:002012-02-04T15:53:41.086+00:00An extremely helpful post, thank you for this. I d...An extremely helpful post, thank you for this. I do hope the Church of England sees the light and presses on courageously with the full inclusion of women (and then I hope to the full inclusion of gay people.)<br />If it is seen to continue to discriminate against women, I feel it can do nothing but harm to how it is perceived by society at large.Suemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03128736092253293640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-40112556299371926762012-02-04T14:50:25.098+00:002012-02-04T14:50:25.098+00:00I don't believe there is such a thing as right...I don't believe there is such a thing as right discrimination. Like any job, there are genuine occupational requirements, and there is a need to discern the gifts and call of God. To say, as some of our Victorian forefathers did, that God could not call a black to be a Bishop on the conscientiously held grounds that this violated Biblical teaching on the Curse of Ham was simply wrong.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-27220890899004498352012-02-04T14:34:18.626+00:002012-02-04T14:34:18.626+00:00The proper question, though, is not whether it is ...The proper question, though, is not whether it is discrimination, but whether it is <i>wrong</i> discrimination. We want <i>some</i> discrimination, I trust - there are some people who are not suitable for some positions, both within and without the church. The question is rather: "which discrimination is appropriate, and which is not."<br /><br />A more helpful post, Alan, and a more helpful discussion in the church at large, would be to set out those factors which <i>should</i> (in your view) determine suitability for senior posts in the CofE, with reasons.Mike Dowlernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-18182565746457035192012-02-04T10:33:41.248+00:002012-02-04T10:33:41.248+00:00I agree with everything you said with regard to ra...I agree with everything you said with regard to racism and prejudice against women. Experiencing prejudice against women ( I was told by my dentist as a teenager that it wasn't worth girls going on to higher education as they just got married etc....) I realised something of what it felt like to be discriminated against because of race. Then when I experienced prejudice against women in the church (people walked out of church when I preached, would not take communion from me) I began to understand how those who were gay felt. So, I think it's way past time the church stopped discriminating on the basis of sexuality too. I really don't understand why John Sentamu doesn't make that connection with his own experience.Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076057434281738924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-9464325749107458912012-02-04T08:41:30.342+00:002012-02-04T08:41:30.342+00:00Indeed. And ditto to everything you've said ab...Indeed. And ditto to everything you've said above with regard to homosexuality.El Stapladorhttp://el-staplador.dreamwidth.orgnoreply@blogger.com