tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post6962912243011847567..comments2024-02-13T11:11:28.246+00:00Comments on Bishop Alan’s Blog: Ins and Outs and Same-Sex Marriage Bishop Alan Wilsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-77298030460433243142014-10-03T18:28:01.549+01:002014-10-03T18:28:01.549+01:00Alan
Are you ignoring Jack's question - or un...Alan<br /><br />Are you ignoring Jack's question - or unable/unwilling to answer.<br /><br />Here it is again:<br /><br />"Setting aside homosexuality and whether it be sin for now, does committing any sin impact on salvation if we believe in Jesus Christ? Is there no deliberate action on our part that offends God that can lose us hope of Heaven - or is anything and everything 'covered' from the moment we believe?"<br /><br />You see Jack isn't interested in the 'mechanics' of homosexual sex, nor whether it is a health hazard. No, his concern is whether it is an offence to God and, if so, how this might effect out Heavenly destination.<br /><br />So does any behaviour threaten salvation? Happy Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09310088819407999147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-72943453423285826862014-10-03T17:49:47.327+01:002014-10-03T17:49:47.327+01:00Having just picked up the Times and Christian Toda...Having just picked up the Times and Christian Today stories on the McCanns I see what you mean...Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-36287414337778998522014-10-03T17:42:19.227+01:002014-10-03T17:42:19.227+01:00Gay and straight people alike get various STD'...Gay and straight people alike get various STD's, and I don't see the direct relevance to allowing gay people to marry. Trying to help, it may well be that someone who genuinely wanted to reduce STD's among gay people should support their right to marry as it could well reduce the number of sexual partners they may have. IN addition much unsafe practice, gay and straight, is the result of shame and dissimulation, so any way of life that encourages people to be more honest and open about who they are sexually may help.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-10327295665305474502014-10-03T17:41:58.876+01:002014-10-03T17:41:58.876+01:00I'm getting deja vu here, and remembering why ...I'm getting deja vu here, and remembering why I almost never engage in these conversations any more, because it was getting so unhealthy. <br /><br />I'm reminded of the Madeleine McCann trolls thing that's running at the moment (and fascinatingly, how at least one of them has been unmasked as a sixtysomething churchgoer from a leafy part of Leicestershire). She seems to have gone on about the same subject for years and years, relentlessly, surely taking up a significant part of her waking life. Something's clearly gone wrong in her head, leading her to heap vitriol on people who have surely already gone through enough. <br /><br />Similarly nothing will ever balance out the perspective of at least two people on this thread: not the sight of so many upstanding, useful, happy loveable gay people contributing to society - or conversely all the other ills in the world which may be avoided by more careful behaviour (a vast proportion of the population are in a pre-diabetic state, a disease described recently by an eminent doctor as 'worse than an HIV diagnosis' - at least in the West where drugs mean the illness is now well controlled.) At some point we must hope there'll be a cure for people who have lost all sense of perspective, but obviously that moment is not yet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-84068283962734405102014-10-03T17:34:02.208+01:002014-10-03T17:34:02.208+01:00The reference to lusting after strange flesh in Ju...The reference to lusting after strange flesh in Jude is to do with the angelic character of the prospective victims. Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-856044868432615092014-10-03T17:29:08.719+01:002014-10-03T17:29:08.719+01:00Chris
In the gospels, Jesus encountered a blind ma...Chris<br />In the gospels, Jesus encountered a blind man. Can you tell me what terrible sin he committed? Or perhaps it may have been his parents? Or perhaps he might have been gay?A Vicarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-89916015924743895972014-10-03T17:22:35.877+01:002014-10-03T17:22:35.877+01:00Re: Sodom
More than one reference to Sodom may ha...Re: Sodom<br /><br />More than one reference to Sodom may have to do with same-sex behaviour. Jude, and the central Sodom text in Genesis itself. Lot seems to be so appalled by the prospect of it that he will even sacrifice his daughters' honour to assuage the men's lust rather than have the homosexual option realised.<br /><br />You say 'could possibly', but that reading seems a lot more than possible.<br /><br />In other places, Sodom is just used as a byword for iniquity (e.g., Jesus's words in Matthew and Luke). Have you ever come across the strange view that there was only one sin of Sodom. Had Sodom had just the one sin, it would have been a byword for righteousness!!<br /><br />Best, <br /><br />Chris.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-15632725914765209602014-10-03T17:15:16.346+01:002014-10-03T17:15:16.346+01:00CS the study established (and I'm out of the o...CS the study established (and I'm out of the office and working from memory) around 38% of straights and 30% of gays practised anal sex. The numbers are not easy to extrapolate from there, but if you assume there to be around 300m in the US, subtract prebuescent children, allow for 6%-ish being gay, then you have to remember females are penetrated anally in opposite sex couples, but only males in male/male couples (which seem to be the one Conservatives are obsessional about). At least half of gay people are probably female (again figures vary, but bear in mind well over half of the first cohort to contract UK same sex marriages were female)... the point is far far more straight people than gay do anal sex. Ig you want to crusade on that subject, please direct your campaign at a group who outnumber gay practitioners by a factor of almost 20. And please don't use that particular sexual behaviour to try and stigmatise a minority when you define them by it. Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-39275058778566654032014-10-03T17:09:59.827+01:002014-10-03T17:09:59.827+01:00There was much discussion of this among early Chri...There was much discussion of this among early Christians especially among North Africans about apostasy in times of persecution. This concern was certainly a major driver int he development of auricular confession. Holding as I do a fairly robust theology of the fall, I am rather with St Paul and St Augustine on this one.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-50219106733302339572014-10-03T17:09:26.221+01:002014-10-03T17:09:26.221+01:00Why are the above commenters obsessed with gay sex...Why are the above commenters obsessed with gay sex? AIDS and STIs are more common among the 'straight' population. Did the above commenters choose their sexuality as an option, like one might select Corn Flakes as opposed to Rice Krispies? If so, when did they decide to become heterosexual?A Vicarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-16401956106599338302014-10-03T16:43:47.540+01:002014-10-03T16:43:47.540+01:00Alan
Jack is aware of both Islam and Palagianism...Alan <br /><br />Jack is aware of both Islam and Palagianism and subscribes to neither position. And he is not homophobic (tsk.. tsk..) nor completely ignorant of the bible.<br /><br />Jack's is a simple man and his position is simple too. The gift of human sex is for a male and female to share intimacy and grow in love in a life long partnership <b>and</b>, in doing so, be open to the possibility of the procreation of new life. <br /><br />You clearly believe "once saved (present tense) - always saved (future tense)". <br /><br />So, a few questions: <br /><br />Setting aside homosexuality and whether it be sin for now, does committing <i>any</i> sin impact on salvation if we believe in Jesus Christ? Is there no deliberate action on our part that offends God that can lose us hope of Heaven - or is anything and everything 'covered' from the moment we believe?<br /> Happy Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09310088819407999147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-46210505084170113262014-10-03T14:49:23.253+01:002014-10-03T14:49:23.253+01:00Bishop Alan, you mentioned a study (USA 2006-8) th...Bishop Alan, you mentioned a study (USA 2006-8) that suggests that 120m straights practise anal intercourse and 6-7m gay men. On no reckoning of the proportion of gay men in the population does that fail to give a higher proportion of gay than of straight.<br /><br />Best, CSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-60681281197052124182014-10-03T14:46:30.784+01:002014-10-03T14:46:30.784+01:00Jill's point is a good one. In telling the you...Jill's point is a good one. In telling the young that homosexuality is one good option for them, you are opening the way for an increase in STIs and risky practices like anal intercourse to increase. <br /><br />What kind of love does this show towards our and others' children? Selling them the 'values' (ahem...) of the sexual revolution? That is really what the church and the gospel have always been about, no?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-53763647163186223172014-10-03T14:34:03.637+01:002014-10-03T14:34:03.637+01:00Presumably, Anon, you will oppose an infected part...Presumably, Anon, you will oppose an infected partner making love to their spouse, or the risks involved in blood tranfusions. AIDS, unlike you, does not discriminate against anyone.A Vicarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-71271661909895126492014-10-03T13:26:32.487+01:002014-10-03T13:26:32.487+01:00Sickle cell disease is an inherited blood disease,...Sickle cell disease is an inherited blood disease, it is not caused by a specific behaviour.Jillnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-36503536058712072472014-10-03T13:24:57.822+01:002014-10-03T13:24:57.822+01:00That last comment was from me.That last comment was from me.Jillnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-11052536736299071532014-10-03T13:22:50.211+01:002014-10-03T13:22:50.211+01:00I have frequently noticed, A Vicar, that people wh...I have frequently noticed, A Vicar, that people who don't have a decent argument to put forward resort to being rude.<br /><br />Many years ago someone close to me died from AIDS. It was horrible, and I have no wish to see it happen to anyone else, and while there is breath in my body I will oppose the kind of behaviour which causes it.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-43512907969566516362014-10-03T10:39:01.308+01:002014-10-03T10:39:01.308+01:00I will draw the line if someone else writes in poi...I will draw the line if someone else writes in pointing out that the overwhelming majority of people who suffer from sickle cell anaemia are black, therefore should describe themselves as "Persons of unasked-for skin pigmentation" and be banned from church leadership.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-41947282661318460842014-10-03T10:33:04.436+01:002014-10-03T10:33:04.436+01:00Can I ask, through the courtesy of this website, t...Can I ask, through the courtesy of this website, that Peter Ould re-opens his blog so that Jill may return to where she properly belongs? Her obsession with diseases of human orifices is surely part of Ould's 'fundamental orthodoxy' and where Jill seemed content to talk about the subject which she so dearly loves.A Vicarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-91021063869281950582014-10-03T10:13:17.955+01:002014-10-03T10:13:17.955+01:00I have to say the word "Sodomy" lost its...I have to say the word "Sodomy" lost its traditional sting for me thirty years ago when I examined the 34 references to the cities of the plain in the Scriptures and discovered to my amazement that only one of them could possibly have anything to do with same sex behaviour. Telescoping this tradition into an insulting term for "gay sex" is an utterly reductionist to read the Bible.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-38703206877321050652014-10-03T10:09:10.825+01:002014-10-03T10:09:10.825+01:00Well I saw the AM piece, and it simultaneously vil...Well I saw the AM piece, and it simultaneously vilifies me for all kinds of detestable enormities, including being the new Bishop Spong (these people have no idea how off the mark that judgment is in every way) and then goes on to say of course he hasn't read the book, and might have to, but resents paying any royalties! The matter speaks for itself.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-48137905652902153772014-10-03T09:54:00.384+01:002014-10-03T09:54:00.384+01:00Congratulations, Bishop Alan. You have received th...Congratulations, Bishop Alan. You have received the ultimate accolade of a vindictive diatribe from Anglican Mainstream, including a link with Peter Ould's 'Cranmer' article exposing your "unpleasant little trick". With these people against you, what proof does anyone need of the rightness of your cause?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-33513937738230225062014-10-03T09:38:46.277+01:002014-10-03T09:38:46.277+01:00A Vicar,
I know you didn't ask me....
but I wo...A Vicar,<br />I know you didn't ask me....<br />but I would like to point you to the clickometer at the top of Alan's blog. The blog is read by far more people than those who comment.<br />Ultimately, we know that people like Jack rarely change their minds.<br />But that doesn't matter. <br />What does matter is that those who read the comments and who may not be quite so rigid, get a full overview of the various positions as well as of the style people use to make their points.<br /><br />The task is to encourage as many middle of the road people as possible to think this issue through. The likes of Jack on the one side and you and me on the other, we're not going to change our minds.<br />But church as a whole will.<br />Partly through this kind of engagement.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-82143476932692739692014-10-03T08:49:42.299+01:002014-10-03T08:49:42.299+01:00Bishop Alan
Your sensible exegesis offered to Happ...Bishop Alan<br />Your sensible exegesis offered to Happy Jack shows the futility of trying to have a "conversation" with fundamentalists in the Church. They have already made up their minds based upon the inerrancy of Scripture which reinforces their already-established prejudice. I would guess this applies even in the House of Bishops where disagreement on the nature of Scripture can reveal the futility of quoting 'proof texts' to change people's minds. Your comments to Happy Jack suggest he has a different religion (Islam). I would venture this applies to the Church of England as a whole, where vast swathes of evangelicals have a faith totally different from that of Jesus.<br />What on earth does quoting ancient Scripture have to do with an enlightened view of human sexuality?A Vicarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7132206171945839649.post-87927267846343506652014-10-03T08:14:24.491+01:002014-10-03T08:14:24.491+01:00Steve, any form of bullying seems to me morally qu...Steve, any form of bullying seems to me morally questionable. One of the good effects of decreasing public prurience and obsession about sexual orientation is that it undermines the logic that makes it possible for anyone to use anyone else's sexuality as a weapon to compromise their human dignity.<br /><br />HJ<br />(1) In mainline Islam, I'm told, God is held to be gracious and help but admission to heaven, salvation, is held to depend ultimately on the balance of good and bad deeds someone has committed. Particularly bad deeds disquality. There was a big debate among early Christians about post-baptismal sin with some taking more or less rigorist positions. These eventually resolved into classic reformation concepts of imputed or infused grace. Islam with its less dynamic view of grace setted on the idea people's deeds would qualify or disqualify them — the idea you were articulating above. Pelagianism was a holiness movement and although it's generally only know from what its enemies said about it, the language about sin was very much along the lines you articulated.<br /><br />As to the Bible, the first one to mention homosexuality as such was published in 1946. There is a microscopic number of texts that apply, 0.002% in fact, all of them open to various interpretations. The way cultural hatred of same sex behaviour has distorted can be demonstrated by considering the 34 texts that mention Sodom. Only one of them, the story of Lot's visitors, talks of same sex behaviour. Yet a "Sodomite" since the 13th century, has been a man who has sex with a man. There's a whole world of meaning in the Bible to be discovered when people take off their homophobic glasses.<br />My approach to the Bible is not modernistic, but historical and canonical, developed by forty years of reading it in its original texts. All I can suggest is that you read the Bible more carefully.<br />All forms of sarcasm produce more heat than light. <br />Jill, figures from 2011 "Sexual Behavior, Sexual Attraction, and SexualIdentity in the United States: Data From the 2006–2008<br />National Survey of Family Growth" from the US Government Department of Health and Human Services Center for Disease prevention and control indicate that a greater proportion of straight people than gay practise anal sex. The upshot is that there could be some 120m in the US, as opposed to some 6-7m gay males. If you are genuinely concerned with the health issue you raised, I would suggest you focus on 120m majority of<br />anal sex practitioners not the 7m, and furthermore it is only ignorance that could want to make the key descriptor of gay males a practice which a greater proportion of straight people practice.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.com